Log for #developers: 2005-05-06 (edited)
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16:53 -!- Irssi: #developers: Total of 96 nicks [4 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 92 normal]
16:53 -!- Irssi: Join to #developers was synced in 1 secs
16:54 < timeless> brendan?
16:54 < timeless> cx->fp->script->atomMap->vector[0]
16:54 < timeless> should that be valid in general?
16:55 < timeless> http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/jslpwf.feeefeee.crash
16:55  * timeless is very close to blaming fastload
16:56 < fantasai> dbaron?
17:03 < rob_strong> Would someone with cvs access be willing to checkin the patch for bug 291946 please?
17:04 < fantasai> Asa?
17:04 < fantasai> bz? roc?
17:08 < db48x> rob_strong: sure
17:08 < rob_strong> db48x: thanks again
17:12 < db48x> rob_strong: you're welcome
17:12 < db48x> it's done
17:12 <@dbaron> fantasai, ?
17:12 <@bz> fantasai: yes?
17:13 < fantasai> dbaron: if 1.8 beta /2/ is scheduled for release early next week,
17:13 < fantasai> dbaron,bz: what happens to the rest of the roadmap schedule?
17:13 <@bz> fantasai: you're asking the wrong people
17:13 < fantasai> http://www.mozilla.org/roadmap.html#schedule
17:13 <@dbaron> fantasai, Asa (and maybe brendan) may have been working on that
17:14 <@bz> fantasai: There's a new plan, sorta.  With a beta 3 and beta 4(?)
17:14 <@bz> fantasai: "feature driven" is the claim
17:14 < fantasai> uh-huh
17:14 < fantasai> so..
17:14 <@bz> fantasai: I've basically stopped paying attention
17:14 < biesi> beta _4_?
17:14 < fantasai> do I extend the April 5th freeze to text week or what?
17:14 < biesi> oh, wait
17:14  * bz shrugs
17:14 < biesi> beta 3 has always been the plan, no?
17:14 < fantasai> *next
17:15 < biesi> beta2 =~ ff 1.1alpha, beta3 =~ ff 1.1beta
17:15 <@bz> for some values of always, yes
17:15 <@bz> There are possible plans for a second ff 1.1 beta
17:15 <@bz> But "shorter milestones"
17:15 <@bz> or something
17:15 <@bz> fantasai: what do you mean?
17:15  * fantasai hasn't actually been paying attention to checking rules
17:15 < fantasai> bz: ok, so we froze for 1.8beta2 on April 5th, yes?
17:15 <@bz> fantasai: need driver approval
17:16 <@bz> fantasai: I think so....
17:16 <@bz> fantasai: and we're frozen until we branch
17:16 < fantasai> bz: that freeze has continued until now
17:16 <@bz> fantasai: I'm assuming no sooner than two months from now
17:16 < fantasai> bz: with no "release", yes?
17:16 <@bz> fantasai: but maybe I'll be wrong
17:16 <@bz> fantasai: correct
17:17 < fantasai> ok..
17:17 < fantasai> so this milestone (1.8b2) is going through two stages of freeze
17:17 < fantasai> The cycle started end of February
17:17 < fantasai> we froze softly on April 5th
17:17 < fantasai> and we're freezing hard today
17:17 <@bz> or something
17:17 <@bz> yeah
17:17 < fantasai> and aiming for a release, let's say, the 10th of May
17:18 < fantasai> dbaron: does that sound about right?
17:18 <@bz> fantasai: sounds like something more or less about right...
17:18 <@bz> fantasai: but I'm not a driver, so just guessing here
17:19 < Andrew> FF 2? 10th of may?
17:19 < fantasai> Andrew: no.
17:19 < fantasai> Andrew: Gecko 1.8 beta 2
17:20 < Andrew> o
17:20 < Andrew> ok
17:20  * fantasai waits for dbaron
17:22  * fantasai notes that FF1.1 was not supposed to be a feature release, just a "merge with the trunk" release...
17:22 <@bz> fantasai: People laugh at me every time I recall that....
17:23 < biesi> I'm so glad that communication in this project works so well
17:24  * fantasai is just trying to keep roadmap.html's schedule up-to-date
17:26 <@dbaron> fantasai, let Asa do it
17:41 -!- bz is now known as bz_food

21:06 -!- Asa [asa@c-67-188-159-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers
21:21 < fantasai> Asa?
21:26 -!- dbaron [dbaron@c-67-161-21-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #developers
21:27 < Asa> fantasai: ?
21:27 < fantasai> Asa: So, just so I'm understanding this all correctly...
21:28 < fantasai> Asa: the 1.8 beta 2 freeze of April 5th was a soft freeze, we're doing a hard freeze today, and the release is targetted for ~ 10th May?
21:28 < Asa> depends.
21:29 < fantasai> what depends on what?
21:29 < Asa> a freeze is a freeze. we always tighten down in the final stages of a freeze.
21:29 < Asa> in retrospect, yeah, it has been kinda soft. it wasn't planned as that though.
21:29 < Asa> we had long poles that kept us slipping so we took non-essential fixes.
21:29 < Asa> while we waited on the critical fixes to come in.
21:30 < WeirdAl> Asa: such as the stop-sharing-between-content-and-chrome fix? :)
21:30 < Asa> but that doesn't mean we froze with the intent of having a long soft freeze and them some harder freeze later.
21:30 < Asa> so it depends on what you intend to do with my answer how I answer :-)
21:31 < Asa> if it's to document what actually happened, maybe your description is good. If it's to document what we're attempting or how thing should go, then I'd say not so much.
21:32 < Asa> fantasai: a lot of how we manage things doesn't distill easily. there are just too many variables. 
21:32 < Asa> even the word "freeze" clearly isn't accurage.
21:33 <@bz> Clearly.
21:33 < WeirdAl> hey bz :)
21:33 < Asa> if we were being accurate, we'd say "managed checkin period" or "more heavily managed checkin period."
21:33 < fantasai> Asa: ok
21:33 < fantasai> Asa: so what should go on the roadmap?
21:33 < Asa> but "we're entering the more heavily manged checkin period on Tuesday night" isn't as easy to say as "we're freezing tuesday night."
21:34  * bz updates all his trees to back on Wednesday
21:35 < Asa> fantasai: not sure what should go on the roadmap. 
21:35 < Asa> maybe replace the roadmap with a buglist :-)
21:35 <@bz> That would actually help
21:35 <@bz> A lot.
21:36 <@bz> It would give people who know what's going on a much better idea of what the state of things is.
21:36 < Asa> well, it would help some things.
21:36 < fantasai> Asa: well, I think the rest of the roadmap should just be cleared out at this point
21:36 <@bz> And it would leave people who don't know what's going on just as much in the dark as they are now.
21:36 <@bz> It would help me manage my time.
21:36 < fantasai> Asa: it's just not accurate anymore, so it's a lot of clutter that doesn't need to be there
21:36 < Asa> except that it's useful to actually put some dates down, like freezes. 
21:36 < Asa> fantasai: take that up with brendan, not me.
21:36 <@bz> It's not useful if we all happily ignore them, Asa.
21:37  * fantasai seconds that
21:37 < fantasai> Asa: I'll do that
21:37  * tor seconds the "clear out the roadmap document" plan
21:37 < Asa> bz: we don't all ignore them. I don't ignore when we freeze. if people are checking in without approval during a freeze, I don't ignore them either.
21:38 <@bz> Asa: and it's worse than useful if some of us pay attention to them whereas others blithely expect the schedule to change to accomodate them
21:38 <@bz> Asa: I'm talking about the dates.
21:38 <@bz> Asa: not about the freezes.
21:38 <@bz> er, worse than useless.
21:38 <@bz> It's actively harmful.
21:38 < Asa> we can't be purely date driven and we can't be purely bug driven.
21:38 < Asa> that means we'll never satisfy everyone.
21:38 <@bz> Sure.
21:38 <@bz> That's not what I'm talking about.
21:39 < Asa> all we can do is try to post more frequently where we think we are today
21:39 <@bz> Do you see me complaining about a pet bug I didn't get in?
21:39 < fantasai> but you can't be changing your overall goals for each release in the midst of a cycle, either
21:39 <@bz> Asa: no
21:39 < Asa> and where we think we can be in the next few days
21:39 <@bz> Asa: what you can do is _enforce_ things.
21:39 <@bz> Asa: Like "if the feature isn't in the plan by now, it's not in"
21:39 <@bz> Asa: subject to discussion with module owners if the feature is wanted badly, etc.
21:39 < Asa> sometimes our goals do change, fantasai. we don't live in a vacuume
21:40 < Asa> bz: yeah, we do a lot of that.
21:40 <@bz> Asa: our goals have changed every single time.
21:40 < Asa> yes. and they changed many times because they needed to change.
21:40 <@bz> Asa: All I'm saying is that this make "us" (the foundation) very painful to work with
21:41 < Asa> what do you expect to happen, when half of our resources are sucked into a few security releases, for example, rather than focused on the original plans?
21:41 < Asa> bz: yes. it does.
21:41 <@bz> Asa: By the time the security releases happened, we had completely dropped the original plans
21:41 <@bz> Asa: from what I could see
21:41 <@bz> Asa: so sorry, I don't buy that...
21:41 < Asa> and if there are ways we can decrease the pain where the cost isn't shipping quality software or hiring another 50 people, then I'm all for it.
21:41 < Asa> bz: not true.
21:42 < Asa> we had already amended the plan a couple of times but it was mostly still in tact.
21:42 <@bz> It wasn't intact by the time aviary landed on trunk
21:43 <@bz> Which happened 6 weeks later than planned...
21:45 < fantasai> tor: mail sent to brendan, cc'ed staff
21:45 < mconnor> bz: that's because I wasn't harassing ben enough ;)
21:54 < Paper> I wouldn't say "painfull", I'd say "annoying".  I don't know what to sit on, or what I should try to get in when the roadmap says 1.8b2 is supposed to be released almost a month ago.
21:54 < Paper> I don't even know if 1.8b3 is going to be pushed forward, or stay on the "May 20th" schedule
21:57 < Paper> From my perspective, the last month of partial freeze has really just been a free-for-all with drivers doing approvals.  IMO, that's no way to force developers to fix up the few blockers.  I've checked in stuff that I wouldn't consider checking in on a partial freeze, because everyone else is putting in far risky things (or even new features)
21:57 < Paper> s/risky/riskier/
22:00  * Paper goes back to playing with a GDIPlus renderer for Canvas
22:01 <@bz> going to sleep soon....
22:01 < timelyx> ajschult: pong
22:01 < ajschult> hey timelyx
22:01 < ajschult> can you commit bug 285653?
22:01 < ajschult> (the last patch)
22:02 < ajschult> (a= in the last comment)